00:00:00: Music.

00:00:12: Gals were so happy for you all to join we hope you enjoyed the last episode.

00:00:17: Today I am joined my name is ricardia by the way I am joined by one of my co-hosts.

00:00:24: Hello Sofia hi who's been sleeping on the job yeah now so Sofia and I are going to talk again today about a subject that we've often addressed and it's.

00:00:37: Well let's back up a little bit for me it's always been very complicated to talk about race my father's from Trinidad my mother's from Ireland,

00:00:45: and I should have been dark-skinned but I look very white now though I didn't when I was born and during my early childhood

00:00:52: I experienced a lot of racism growing up in my working-class hometowns and later in a very Posh boarding school and my son who is part Asian likes to remind me quite frequently that I don't get it because I pass for white

00:01:06: he has a strong point my skin color is as confusing to me as it is to anyone else I speak.

00:01:12: So sometimes I'm apologizing for not being ethnic enough

00:01:16: because my dancing skills can compare to my Trinidadian at and at other times I avoid conversations among all white people because I can't fully relate to them in fact they often make me rather angry either due to their self conscious woke talk,

00:01:31: or they're unconscious remarks such as this guy in the supermarket he has a migrational background and of course he totally behaved like this in this country so none of these groups feels like my tribe and.

00:01:45: I do what I always do I just sit somewhere between warring tribes and I pretend I'm Switzerland

00:01:50: so that's what I do visually speaking I think it's a little less ambiguous for you Sofia you biological parents are in

00:02:01: in from India and you are darker than I and in the 1970s you were adopted by Swedish parents.

00:02:11: So I'm going to explain a little bit why I really really wanted to talk to you about this because I think you're the only,

00:02:20: POC soapy person of color and gay woman I know

00:02:24: who doesn't address either of these aspects of her personality a whole lot whenever I come to see you and Karina you in Sweden which is a lot I talked some about racism sometimes,

00:02:36: racism in Germany or the states and I noticed that whenever I do.

00:02:43: You don't say enough a lot which is unusual because Sofia and I can talk until the cows come home so at some point I remember saying something again you just sort of not saying anything and then I was like.

00:02:56: Does POC even mean anything to you and then you just smiled so I'm going to ask you Sofia does,

00:03:03: POC mean anything to you no no,

00:03:08: I don't consider myself I mean I consider myself as a human so I don't consider myself.

00:03:18: I wouldn't say if if I would describe my skin color if somebody would ask me I would say I'm Brown hmm,

00:03:27: and you know my I had a lot of you know my mother and father and also their friends they had like nicknames for me when I was younger and that wasn't like racist is all but I called me like.

00:03:41: If I translate like gingerbread sweetheart or,

00:03:47: yeah and there was just no way I never even think about it.

00:03:52: But gingerbread because of the skin color or just because they like gingerbread for Christmas like what do you think I think I think it yes because of the skin okay okay but that did it didn't bother you obviously know something yeah never and I.

00:04:06: Come across.

00:04:08: Very rarely people being racist I do you know of course sometimes but.

00:04:18: Not the extent that you are talking about I actually don't get it but I don't know.

00:04:27: Should we what what should I how should I feel given what should I feel what should I what do you think now that's actually that now you're getting to another question that I was going to have later down where I sometimes feel like.

00:04:41: What am I doing here am I trying to make her.

00:04:44: Feel things that clearly she didn't feel or am I trying to make her feel guilty for not being more woke about her own skin color like that just seems so arrogant in some ways but I of course.

00:04:59: When I talk to somebody else about you and I said you know she never talks about this I think it was my son actually and he said,

00:05:06: yeah but maybe she's in denial maybe these things happen because but she doesn't want to see it or she just forgot about it because it was too painful does any of that ring about know what God about it yeah,

00:05:21: like maybe because you're very resilient person from how I know you you just decided that maybe it happened but it wasn't important enough for you to become a life-defining moment maybe I don't know I'm totally speculating here.

00:05:33: No I mean I know I and I don't deny it well you know why should I deny I'm proud of who I am if I you know were.

00:05:46: Are you know I can't say it now because you have you you say always to music you can't say that can't do that again and I'm okay but um yeah no I never you know had 11 when I was.

00:06:02: Twelve I think something like that I was in where you go swimming.

00:06:07: The swimming pool yeah and only almost with a big hole what do you quit like we said,

00:06:12: swim hole in space because swimming pool a public swimming pool yeah but inside like inside or got yeah the one that ordered by your saucer

00:06:22: yeah yeah yeah Sophia sometimes lives in Berlin and order a burger Strasse for those of you don't know have a very chic swim holla yeah yes yeah,

00:06:31: and there was this kid coming up to me when I was standing next to the pool I was about to jump in and he said how does it feel to be.

00:06:41: Brown in the water I guess not no no I'm gonna just how does it feel and I was like.

00:06:49: That was the first time I thought that I yeah right I don't look like everybody else.

00:06:56: Especially in this part where I used to live I do live actually but.

00:07:02: You know I always seen this as a very positive thing you know that you know look bit different and I'm proud of my.

00:07:12: Color but I never think about it I just feel a bit more tanned than everybody anybody else and I always got a laughs hello little bit.

00:07:22: Yeah I'll get a lot of compliments you know so yeah but.

00:07:28: No I never I never think about it it's so interesting because I know but I know for me it was different and I was never like I was.

00:07:38: I don't know I just there was always some sort of commentary on it like I was the little black one they called me the little black one in Germany

00:07:45: which is so funny because I was would you like that hello but that was just something they said or even in boarding school it was made very clear to me that.

00:07:57: There was The Stereotype like I was probably very sexual or very wild sexually but you didn't bring me home to Mom it was very clear that I was not marriage material but you could get you you know your groove on with me,

00:08:12: until the time came when you brought an actual lady home that's what makes sure that this is how it was that I can't be showing now but I

00:08:21: I definitely I remember specifically you are the most elegant woman I know no thank you but I remember this one time I had a boyfriend and his grandfather had my mom sign a document that,

00:08:35: they would not be responsible if I got pregnant like I was supposed to visit my boyfriend yeah cuz he saw a picture of me and I was like oh she's dark.

00:08:45: And after that came this whole thing about me and I was like would you are not Dora I know but compared to blond fun and sue my boarding school I must have looked positively,

00:08:57: . and but that's wasn't very often but it happened but this kind of stuff didn't happen to you,

00:09:02: and I know you also grew up in parts of Sweden that would also be considered a conservative part of Sweden and this is actually I'm not sure if it was when.

00:09:13: I was a little girl but now this is this place and this part of Sweden the south of Sweden skill no it's cold.

00:09:23: I think it's the most racist place in Sweden if you look how people vote.

00:09:31: So and how they wanted to not have too many refugees here yes no no no exactly and will sometimes.

00:09:40: The worst is we moved to Stockholm outside Stockholm when I was about 7 or 8 and.

00:09:47: My teacher was religious and it's I mean it's not so common in Sweden so.

00:09:58: When I came to the class the first day the teacher said to my mother afterwards that you could have said that she was you know what did she say did I had another skin color and my mother was like.

00:10:12: No why why should I and she said I just prepare the other pupils.

00:10:20: And when was it no we are not doing that hmm because I don't think it's relevant and.

00:10:29: So we wee.

00:10:37: Never made it a problem I love that and I think I've actually made more of a problem than it was sometimes and I think it happened.

00:10:47: In hindsight in some ways because of course I became more Allure because my son looks Asian but I remember actually when I first started dating his father in New York.

00:10:57: I was madly in love it really was kind of love at first sight I think I met the guy and I was I turned around to my best friend and said by the way that's my next boyfriend and then my close relative of mine saw a picture of him.

00:11:12: And said oh you've never had one of those before I totally didn't get it I didn't understand what she meant so I said,

00:11:22: one of those what do you mean well you know Oriental like which at the time you already weren't saying anymore either and I remember thinking,

00:11:31: it was a loss of innocence in some ways because I hadn't thought of him that before that way before and now I had to think of this person or human as an Asian person and I really resented that because,

00:11:46: you know everyone's talking about how you can't be colorblind how that makes everybody invisible and I understand that but at the same time I do feel like in the states.

00:11:56: It's there's no.

00:11:58: But in the states it's like extreme but in Germany it's could be coming that way where are you now it's.

00:12:08: Now it's even like me who's sort of in-between but I'm definitely white looking so I can never figure out where I am in this context like I can't talk about it because I'm too privileged to.

00:12:21: Have had really bad experience I was I grabbed a very privileged right but then I heard other people talk about it in this sort of self-conscious

00:12:30: you know I'm so woke I don't eat strawberries in Winter and I don't because it's

00:12:36: technically not in season I love black people are you just like okay we get it you're read the newspaper on your up on the Academia side of things and so.

00:12:49: I love that you have what I perceived to be.

00:12:53: That innocence a little bit that I had before this whole thing before moving to America and realizing oh my God there is a race war,

00:13:01: here that I had not experienced as much in Germany and you kind of still have it which is I feel like that's why you often don't.

00:13:10: You look at me like what are you talking about yeah but um.

00:13:16: And you have that smirk on your face now like you're not saying something no no I'm just thinking about how how would you think how would you like me to react.

00:13:28: I don't.

00:13:29: It's less of how would I like you to react and it's more like you're so on the opposite spectrum of what's going on in the countries I've lived in always believed in it and not not only with my.

00:13:41: Color maybe people will shoot me now when I say this but I you know I don't watch the news because mostly it's very depressing and I don't know anything about you know.

00:13:54: Covid or Corona I just I know that's out there,

00:13:58: but you know you laughed at us last evening because we didn't know but you know it is know the difference between ozr to know and and that's really okay maybe it is some,

00:14:11: how innocent or.

00:14:13: My father is the same you know he doesn't mean it's also a little bit I mean if we're going to talk about privilege and of course you live in a really lovely country and you live close to the.

00:14:25: I mean that there's not a lot of people here

00:14:27: so you don't have to be confronted with it all the time the the corona now I mean right I mean I'm here for two weeks I haven't worn a mask once I'm like oh it's like a parallel universe

00:14:37: you know so I guess it really is very strongly also contextual,

00:14:42: thing about when do we talk about coming back to sort of the original topic when do we talk about race or being a person of color.

00:14:50: When do we feel like there's no other way to live but to talk about it and when does this seem to be a context where.

00:14:56: People aren't addressing you in that way which feels to me like that's how you grew up people just didn't I mean I kind of almost can't.

00:15:05: Believe it like how that's possible but I mean I know that never tells David rested I mean but it was it was in a positive way is it was.

00:15:17: I think it was a bit exotic to be honest I mean there was,

00:15:23: which is also a word nobody likes to use anymore mmm it's like it's so funny to me I know what you mean because people used to say that to me 20

00:15:32: you-you-you darker people are very what do they always say oh mixed children are always so pretty mmm mmm

00:15:41: that's considered benevolent racism as well right like it's considered what you say is positive right they talked about benevolent racism yes I know and II in Germany yeah and I would stay.

00:15:55: In a way I feel like I'm contaminating you know that you know and you said and you said something about what were you saying before.

00:16:06: Makes the positive we said yeah yeah exactly when I was when I was very little.

00:16:15: In the beginning my mother and father when they when they took me to.

00:16:23: He was in the hospital but where the old people lived before

00:16:28: like the seniors home yeah kind of yeah no way home and my mother's grandmother was there and she couldn't really grasp the concept of adoption so.

00:16:42: When they showed me the first time she said oh this is gonna be a very special child she's so tanned.

00:16:52: And my mother said yeah yeah she is you know she said yeah,

00:16:57: I can see that this is a special child so did she think you were white but someone had left you out in the sun too long or she actually realized you know no I think she just you like to hose only you know only white people I think right and.

00:17:12: I had I don't know I told you yesterday that you know a lot of women's they seem to want to take care of me and you know.

00:17:23: Perfectly fine I can manage by myself but I think it's quite sweet and that was the same when I was a child all these women always wanted to,

00:17:33: take care of me and here we had a bakery

00:17:37: and there was this really really ugly woman I mean not ugly ugly I mean ugly as a person oh yeah and like wow no and she was always you know soon tough very tough and but every time I stepped into the,

00:17:54: to the shop,

00:17:55: she forgot all about the other customers all about the other clients and she just turned to me and said you can choose anything you want here oh so I always did and that thing you can.

00:18:08: You can say that word either but it was a little bit of a chocolate round thing above all right and that was a we had a really.

00:18:17: Horrible name for that one in Sweden but yeah couple in Germany as well yes we don't going to say that but she was super sweet to me so I know you know I never my mother always used that you know she was like when we went to.

00:18:33: The French Riviera sounds very Posh but

00:18:37: well that is it is actually I think we got there in a caravan so it wasn't you know but we were there and my mother she like

00:18:47: the Glamour and so we were walking and looking at those big yachts and my mother said.

00:18:57: Jump on you know jump onto one of those yachts and pretend that you you got lost or something so so I sue me me and my you and your.

00:19:11: Sorry.

00:19:11: Me and your dad can also come you know onto the yard so I did that because I was kind of cute it was little so I did that and they invited,

00:19:26: no way yeah.

00:19:28: That is hilarious so she always said he you're so cute come on yeah yeah that I think my mom did the same thing and she and he said new stuff I must return to that what.

00:19:41: He said that I was in denial no he asked do you think that maybe she is in denial of what of these things having happened but because you're very resilient person you just decided they weren't going to be defining moments in your life.

00:19:55: Like racist singer I mean to be fair some very bad things happen to him in Berlin,

00:20:01: yeah I know this is his life does not compare to yours at all and not because he grew up badly he also go he also is aware of his privilege but the run-ins with the police,

00:20:12: slurs at school I mean there definitely were defining moments for him what he thought.

00:20:19: Well I'm going to think twice about going to the police when I'm having trouble in this country so that's why it's a very separate thing and I

00:20:29: I cannot also fully understand his experience because again it's very different from mine yours is very different from mine I guess I'm always why I wanted to talk to you I'm always interested in having

00:20:40: Alternatives because everything is so in a bubble now everyone's got their own algorithm and so to hear other perspectives and choices and experiences has become really difficult and that's why I think your,

00:20:55: perspective just it's also important to hear that people don't always feel compelled to.

00:21:04: Either because they're privileged or not or whatever it is but that there are other experiences on a spectrum of,

00:21:12: the possible hmm and that is why I wanted to have this conversation yeah but I do I mean I kind of

00:21:20: thought about it of course when this SD party in they have a lot of votes now is that right right asparagus Sweden right and I

00:21:35: said to clean if they get the power here who that's going to be difficult you know because I am I am.

00:21:44: A woman and they don't want the women to they want them back in the kitchen again yeah and.

00:21:53: Gay they don't like gay people and also my skin color so it's.

00:22:01: Yeah I don't know I think I think it's very worrying but but.

00:22:07: Yeah I don't know maybe I am in denial then because I don't want to like you said I just.

00:22:18: Yeah I know that they are there but I don't you know I don't want to.

00:22:24: Focus on that or engage yeah and I also think.

00:22:30: It's very difficult to always be the one who engages with every cause and mmm wave of.

00:22:39: You know whatever it is emitted as out there because you get exhausted I mentioned it to you plenty times I was very politically active and

00:22:48: the early 2000 it was exhausted all the time because change wasn't happening I would run into so much more ignorant than when I just ignored the news sometimes and so yeah I think

00:22:59: everybody gets exhausted from certain things and should be able to choose to opt out every now and then you know.

00:23:06: Yeah anyway I think that was everything that I wanted to talk to you about what about you.

00:23:13: What do you think sometimes when I when I say these things do you.

00:23:18: Okay I will put an interpretation out there that I think comes as a reaction from you and I'm curious if it's true.

00:23:28: Do you think I exaggerate sometimes yes yes I'll please don't hold back yeah yeah yeah I do but I I can't I mean I'm not in your.

00:23:41: Position so I can't speak for your experiences but I noticed that I.

00:23:48: I've been to the states a couple of times and I've been working so and I was in the south.

00:23:56: In Georgia one time at one point and I do realize that it was it's very different it's a different climate but.

00:24:07: You know somebody like warned me we were going to a house there were their friends and there was an author and it was a book launch and they said you want to come she's you know having a book launch and say yeah and they said yeah and her husband is black.

00:24:24: Okay yeah what do you want I mean what's the thing I mean I can't imagine if people say that maybe they do we're going to Kareem on Sofia ourselves by the way she is.

00:24:35: Broly hmm I don't know maybe they do.

00:24:40: I don't know but I think so bro strongly geographically mmm.

00:24:47: Defined how our perception is and then I think for me sometimes because of my whole history of like being engaged politically and stuff I sort of get very.

00:25:00: On board with these things like I have a small little activists inside me still then feels like yes we must fix all of this now and so maybe my

00:25:10: boundaries from the subject to what I'm experiencing aren't always solid,

00:25:17: and I think that happens so that's why I think,

00:25:20: I picked that up from you you're like all right yeah that was good that was good pick up the right thing I'm picking him up what you're laying down all right hon I have.

00:25:34: I think this is a very very interesting conversation I'm curious

00:25:38: how are listeners will feel about it speaking of our listeners I want to let everyone know that we now have

00:25:44: the website ready which is me and the gals.com you can subscribe to the podcast there and also if you have any suggestions for topics or you think you want to be a gallon our podcast please feel free to reach out.

00:25:59: The email is yes hello at me and the gals.com looking forward to your feedback maybe some of your own experiences around the topic.

00:26:06: Music.