00:00:00: Music.
00:00:12: I hope you enjoy the last episode with our guest jameelah.
00:00:15: Today I am again happily reunited with my other co-host in Sweden from Sweden Karina and Sophia Rashmi and today we are going to talk about a subject that we've talked about.
00:00:29: Many times and have actually had some very heated discussions about but before I get into the meat of it girls if you want to say hi real quick
00:00:37: hi ricardia this is Karina speaking hello this is Sofia it's nice to be back nice to be back
00:00:43: it is nice we're not in the same room the three of us but we're practically next door so broadcasting from Sweden if you will the question that we
00:00:52: I asked ourselves and voided we have a hard time making up this title it was to be or not to be a mom,
00:00:58: who asked the question so like I said oh God here we go here we go girls be brave
00:01:08: so we've talked about this endlessly and you'll see why because each of us has a very different approach and biography and story around the big child question so
00:01:20: what we've discovered among many things is that it turns out women among each other aren't always.
00:01:26: So tolerant towards the kinds of decisions we've made and so we would like to talk about that today in which ways we can find some common ground and maybe a creative
00:01:37: we are creative but a constructive dialogue so
00:01:41: as many of you know as many of you will have experienced some of us make the conscious choice to have children many of us didn't plan it necessarily or didn't think that the partner would turn out to be this kind of parent.
00:01:54: Or we didn't turn out to be the kind of parent we want to accept
00:01:58: who did I get in line for that one people and others are not able to have children and so the choice is sort of taken from them.
00:02:06: And even others have three or more children and we've also talked about that in Epic discussions but all of us we felt seem to be under some sort of scrutiny as to what
00:02:17: our choice or our faith in terms of motherhood looks like.
00:02:22: So girls today I think I want to start out first and foremost by saying thanks for being here because I know each of us is feeling a bit nervous around the subject because we had such differing opinions so
00:02:33: I would like to ask the very open question why as women at the risk of sounding like a song Why Can't We Be Friends
00:02:40: Why Can't We Be Friends why is it so hard for us to have this discussion just from a gut instinct what do you think why is it hard.
00:02:50: Sensitive subject at least if you have children it's like how can you say anything against the decision.
00:03:00: A such a big decision if you.
00:03:03: Already taken the decision and you have children and dumb the trip would all what that means it's hard but then again as with everything else in life you start up.
00:03:15: At one point right.
00:03:17: And you know so little about what is coming and you have all this pictures and images about what it should be like and you know what the journey will look like and it never seldom,
00:03:31: it's like that I think obviously I'm speaking as a grown up woman.
00:03:36: In her 60s I've done a bit of a journey with my children and with myself so,
00:03:43: I would probably not have said the same thing if I was 30 today.
00:03:47: What about you Sofia do you feel like maybe there's a lot of judgment around regardless of which of those choices we make lots of children not at all reluctant motherhood yes absolutely I mean obviously I think it's
00:04:02: I'm going to.
00:04:03: Go ahead and say it but there are a lot of people that question my decision not to have any children I kind of didn't understand the question why can't we be friends who are you referring to.
00:04:17: Well I was very broadly referring to women among each other not being very tolerant the others choices I know I haven't been and I know I have also caught myself defending.
00:04:31: My choice and I just wanted to hear from you and maybe I should say this I thought maybe
00:04:35: it had come out in the conversation but Sofia does not have any of her own children Karina has two grown-up children and I have one so that being said
00:04:47: Sofia you said you find yourself Defending Your Position of not choosing to be a mother at times what did that look like for you I mean it's not that often anymore but another thing also
00:05:00: could be a certain generation maybe but there are actually people in my age and younger who questioned it and I mean this was
00:05:09: the conscious choice I made that.
00:05:12: Didn't want to have any children but people can be quite in insensitive yeah about it because before they know.
00:05:23: Why I didn't have any children they always assume you're losing out yeah they always assume that I'm losing out on something but also like if,
00:05:33: it could have been a problem for me you maybe maybe I couldn't have any children or yeah in one way or another medical thing
00:05:41: you mean yeah yeah or yeah exactly or I maybe didn't find the right partner or whatever but they people always you know.
00:05:51: Actually I have one I'm not going to mention any names but there's somebody living very.
00:05:58: Close to us lives on this street but I'm not saying any number yeah exactly no but
00:06:05: very close and she is also living with a woman and you know one day she came by with her bike and she she have,
00:06:14: two children we're together with a woman and she just passed my house and said while she was biking saying so when are you going to have children.
00:06:24: She did I was like that's very strange I you should have children.
00:06:29: What I was like why are people telling me this why should you yeah.
00:06:35: Do you think it's concerned for you that maybe you would regret it at some point or is there may be some jealousy because.
00:06:43: Well maybe she didn't want any or why do you think people feel free enough to call from a bicycle yo you need I know but you see
00:06:54: I think that actually she wanted because if you
00:06:58: if you live in the same sex marriage you have time to think it's not like you drink a bottle of wine and all of a sudden you're pregnant on a Friday evening so so you can
00:07:08: you have toys that's how that goes yes exactly you have to plan you need wine
00:07:13: and then you need to be really sure but there was something I was supposed to say will you say shout yeah yeah yeah interesting enough because I chose to have dogs instead I love my dogs dearly
00:07:26: my dog actually it is now but I almost at the moment and people always question me when I say you know I would like to have another dog and they got
00:07:37: what kind of what kind of reaction is that is when one enough he is a one enough and I go like well imagine if I would say that to people who you know.
00:07:48: Want to overpopulate the world saying oh no not another kid isn't one enough.
00:07:56: It's true in fact I have done that I have said when people had two children on Mike why didn't say it like the way you said but I did say gosh do you think maybe,
00:08:05: you know because already most of them were struggling with the work-life balance their Partnerships weren't great and here comes child number three and I found myself speaking of judgmental so judgmental thinking.
00:08:18: What are you doing that's like taking the Titanic and be like you know what that is.
00:08:23: Don't look big enough let me write down the whole thing and I know yeah I know I have friends and I found myself to be so merciless yeah I know what you're saying
00:08:34: yeah that s dog hardly seems to be.
00:08:37: You know as much of a problem maybe as yeah I think it's interesting that people allow themselves to say stuff like that to me because you know.
00:08:48: That's not very sensitive very sensitive there is one reason and one reason only why I don't have any kids.
00:08:55: Because I wanted my total freedom hmm that's the only thing.
00:08:59: And I know that the children brings love and everything else on another level but no I wanted my freedom 100% simple as simple as that
00:09:08: okay bye notice how Karina and I are both very quiet this is where I feel like I want to hit you because I want my freedom.
00:09:18: Hit me then no oh she did that kind of episode girls.
00:09:25: Another episode now well you see I have to think I am from a different generation I actually am especially when it comes to this subject I shouldn't say there was never a choice
00:09:37: obviously there must have been a choice for me too but it was more like you were suspected you were expected to do certain things yes.
00:09:46: Marry a guy have kids and that was it kind of thing it sounds horrible mother marrying the guy thing didn't go so well so the question of my freedom,
00:09:59: how much that.
00:10:01: Was worse or what that would mean to me in my personal growth and so was never up for discussion because it was always like.
00:10:10: The question about having kids was Superior or.
00:10:14: Came first or I don't know and it sometimes it really strikes me because I am a person who fought a lot too.
00:10:23: To get my education to have what I considered a decent job and sort of.
00:10:30: Look at myself as a person who would actually have some sort of career and.
00:10:35: I I managed to take myself from a small village up north in Sweden to have an N degree and you know I got myself a job in an international company and all that and then all of a sudden I lost my brains.
00:10:49: And I said yes to two kids without linking without actually thinking what that would mean for me in the long run.
00:10:56: I'm not saying I don't love my children of course I do but now in retrospect requisite wrecked,
00:11:03: but I see that I might have been able to do that differently.
00:11:10: Actually maybe it's even about a different time it's not like you put into question if you should have had children or children or not or you could that's also a possibility but maybe it's also about circumstances,
00:11:23: definitely for me it was yeah because I moved abroad to have my kids meaning I left all my friends I left my family I left any type of known Network and was.
00:11:37: Actually a pretty alone out there.
00:11:40: And in that circumstances and in that place I decided to have a child so that was not very I don't know where my brains was.
00:11:50: I want to Circle back to Sophia's statement because I think first of all I think it's very brave.
00:11:57: To put it unequivocally in that way which one the one about Freedom mmm-hmm so for you these things
00:12:06: having children or not is a mutually exclusive experience so if you have children then you don't have freedom for me I'm yet again a different example from the to view where I had my son very young and so I don't even remember.
00:12:21: I don't even know that I fully tasted Freedom before he even was already on the way I'm so use I was.
00:12:29: In a way my son raised me as much as I raised him I was going to college I was working raising raising this kid on the side and I became a single mom for a while and I.
00:12:39: Thought of Freedom all of not none of the time really and I have to say that I didn't make a lot of.
00:12:47: Career compromises because I had a kid I sort of just slept him along or somehow integrated him into the whole thing and now that he's grown I have.
00:12:57: Freedom and I don't always like it so much which is ironic.
00:13:02: Yeah like I'm so used to somebody in quotes now needing me that I don't find it so.
00:13:12: Easy and that's where I am V Sofia truly because I think you become a very different person when you always asked to be you and you alone.
00:13:24: Yeah it's like what you always say Sofia that you have reinvented yourself so many times in life whereas.
00:13:33: Me I'm just starting to reinvent myself I'm just starting to sort of try to figure out not who was I again.
00:13:40: Those two kids came like we're going because you have to put yourself aside in a way you can't really focus on yourself because
00:13:48: it's just not possible no and that's kind of a sad thought in a way but now since I'm approaching
00:13:56: 30 oh come on no I'm approaching I can't say so 50
00:14:03: yeah okay you know if I look back you said something about regretting your choice or jealous or that you said something about I can't really remember but I don't.
00:14:15: Hmm this is a tricky one I do not regret my life because it is and has been wonderful.
00:14:26: I've been doing a lot of stuff and things that I couldn't do if I had children,
00:14:32: but now when you start to contemplate a little bit about your life and you look and I have no siblings and my mother's passed away and so only my father I feel a little bit you know hmm so
00:14:45: yes it's just going to be me and I'm going to be alone but you can't really have kids because you don't want to be alone when you are like.
00:14:55: 75 a don't help in that regard you never know no and I don't think so but but I do I consider that I have like almost half a child my ex-girlfriends son.
00:15:08: And I am so in love with him and I can see the joy absolutely but you see that's a base of the struggles that's also a bit like becoming,
00:15:18: grandmother as I am my granny now yeah because then you only get to do the nice things,
00:15:25: you don't always have to be there for the child and you can just,
00:15:29: run along and have your life and then you meet up sometimes you do the funny things and that's actually a wonderful.
00:15:36: Type of relationship to have two charges but it's completely different from the mom.
00:15:41: I mean you can't compare the two at all in all terms of the kind of Joy I think I mean I don't have one yet but I imagine
00:15:48: that it must be really nice because you only get to do the fun stuff but that's sort of circle back to being a mom not a grand mom
00:15:55: what do you think we can do in terms of having conversations around motherhood because I think a lot of times when women actually talked about it in all honesty there among each other
00:16:06: there's no microphone in front of their face that's often women sound like they didn't reach their dreams,
00:16:14: maybe I can carefully put it that way that they feel they didn't reach their potential and they don't blame it on the children
00:16:20: not at all I've never heard that and I'd be very surprised but they blame it on the circumstances under which they had them or the cultural context in which they had them what do we do when we sort of feel like,
00:16:33: we've missed out because of yeah going this route there's nothing much you can do actually except try to live your best life.
00:16:43: After the kids are growing up like I'm doing I ever feel like I've started over.
00:16:49: Maybe because I met you Sofia and.
00:16:54: You're a child who made your everybody treats me like each other.
00:16:59: Everybody wants to take care of you you're so sweet now but you're a bit younger than me and you know we started again.
00:17:07: It feels like life so it feels like I'm getting a second chance here.
00:17:13: But just live fully my own me my own life but you both feel you can't have your dreams and your children to like you can't have your cake and eat it too because that I don't feel like I really did do what I wanted.
00:17:27: To do.
00:17:29: Do you think if you did more than ever because I was also in a complicated relationship very conservative relationship where there was a lot of
00:17:38: things expected from me as a mother and spouse and partner and expat partner and God knows what I'm guessing I'm not a very good example to refer to in that sense I think and this might
00:17:53: sound a bit controversial but.
00:17:58: Most of the people I know I'm going to say 90% just to be provocative maybe I have yeah 90% I think they had
00:18:09: children for the wrong reasons oh you think.
00:18:15: But you see the oh I'm not interested and I'm not going to say who it is of course but I tell you what are those reasons Sophie I think that's more interesting than who it is what do you think the wrong reasons are
00:18:26: the wrong reasons they complicate the yeah well maybe yes
00:18:32: but that is not necessarily a bad thing but the obvious ones when when they very early in the relationship complains about their partners.
00:18:41: Temper their Partners use of.
00:18:46: Alcohol may be the partners you know how they fight a lot and makes her or him insecure a lot of those fundamental things that you should have in a partner that
00:19:00: that really makes you feel,
00:19:04: like the one and only or they have kids because the other one didn't have kids and now that this person or in the second.
00:19:14: Round so there's a lot of things you know so what is the best and everybody gets divorced when the 50 when they move out so.
00:19:23: But what is the best reason for having kids is it for yourself or is it to populate the world or is it.
00:19:30: For the child itself or I would say to populate the world.
00:19:35: Yes the world needs more people especially Berlin prenzlauer Berg needs a lot more children yeah yeah yeah no but that is a good question to put out there today was super agrestic alive to have them you mean,
00:19:49: yeah for everybody's sake I have to say even though I'm clearly a mother of one that
00:19:56: I think my son actually would agree with what you just said he's Generation Z gen Z they're very woke and conscious and informed they haven't always got the experience to back up their theoretical knowledge but
00:20:10: he's always saying to me my I'm just going to let you know there won't be grandchildren by us like
00:20:18: I am going to adopt if anything which I'm totally fine with this name does vying for this grandchild take it from anywhere just deliver
00:20:27: let's give it here no but you would actually agree and even though I'll think a lot of people would take issue
00:20:35: with the idea of there being 90% not having them for the right reasons for me.
00:20:42: I think the only right reason there is is that you love this other person that you're with your partner.
00:20:50: In a way that I don't even know if I've ever been at that stage of my life that I've Loved a person and that mature a way to say you and me baby let's go.
00:21:01: Yeah but that's what I said I mean the basic parts must be there can't be like fighting and
00:21:08: whatever it is sometimes I think if it was the other way around that you were not able to have kids until you turned 50
00:21:16: half of you wouldn't have children I think no not as such an interesting Theory Karina is that I mean think about it when you're W between your 20s and you
00:21:26: 30s you know nothing you don't know anything and maybe that's the only way for nature to actually have kids around because as long as you know nothing you walk into that
00:21:36: space in life and you have your kids and you just make it work but if you would have known the struggles and the difficulties and the.
00:21:46: The sheer vulnerability yeah but maybe you wouldn't have actually taken that decision yeah but I mean of course there have been times in my life where I actually thought about having children.
00:22:00: Different circumstances but as older I got.
00:22:05: And I watched my friends I just felt no no I don't want this I don't want this but I also think a lot of your friends they feel safe talking to you.
00:22:17: And actually telling you the truth about motherhood about the struggles about how difficult it is.
00:22:24: Because you made that decision and then they feel safe not it's not like when two mothers talk to each other and there's always a bit of you know you have to keep your facade up you have to sort of.
00:22:35: Stand by your decision and you have to really
00:22:39: take the other one believe that you did the right thing very few mothers would say I regret having kids I mean I know some
00:22:48: but I do yeah but you see people are not really talking to me about the motherhood
00:22:54: they talked to me about their relationship and loss of Freedom yeah and that is strongly connected to yeah so but no I don't think anyone will say I don't like to be a mother but I actually came across a couple of those
00:23:11: who said that their life was actually destroyed when they got children and they regret it I just feel bad for the children if you actually arrive at that.
00:23:20: That verdict my God but I mean if you think about it there's so many children out there in the world that needs.
00:23:27: Proper adults in their lives so.
00:23:30: Maybe we should stop having kids and just adopting the poor ones that are out there but that's not having that's another thing yeah not a food nor nothing I mean since I am adopted.
00:23:40: Yeah I always felt it very close to my heart that if I should have any children I would adopt and I don't I find it ridiculous when people say no I want one of my own.
00:23:53: It's like what is it like a handbag I yeah but you know I can't understand it because I am a product of adoption and I had really loving caring parents and I never had any.
00:24:06: Problems with the being adopted and so I would definitely do it but I know that a lot of people they you know we're overpopulated yeah because it's also this
00:24:17: it's a landmark in your life
00:24:19: to have this own child and I think a lot of us women romanticize the whole idea of giving birth itself and then the the breastfeeding that's all this cultural you know birth,
00:24:31: really does rebirth you as a woman in some ways but I'm not sure that an adopted child wouldn't have done that for me as well
00:24:38: because the birth itself if the guy could do this I'd be like have a nice time I'll meet you when it's out and the recovery is awful and I just I could I could use not
00:24:48: that for not to happen you know I wonder I wonder about something Sofia said in terms of.
00:24:57: That that would be the higher cause for me you asked me about.
00:25:03: Why you should have children or whatever how was the question but you said something about when you love somebody that dearly you want to have a child that would be my answer to that I would have I would adopt a child,
00:25:17: and that would be my higher cause I would could give back what was given to you was given to me.
00:25:25: So that was that's my answer.
00:25:30: So I have a question that comes up for me when I think about what you said and you specially Sofia but also Karina can we,
00:25:39: really think of ourselves as having free will when it comes to the choices we make in terms of having children or are we just repeating what are parents.
00:25:50: Did and not necessarily questioning that all that much.
00:25:54: As women who are so far the biological beings that have the children themselves.
00:26:00: Oh that's a tough one I know I at least look at myself as a product of my,
00:26:10: parents generation and what was expected and you know you just did what everyone else did and all that.
00:26:17: It's hard to say it depends a lot on who you associate with what your friends are doing and what sort of environments and.
00:26:26: Places you put yourself in as an adult before you take that decision.
00:26:31: Because you're very easily affected by what other people think or do or,
00:26:37: see what you see things are you maybe not now but maybe then at the time so if you saying you've never been affected by those around you.
00:26:46: That's that's you'd that would be weird because then your wiring in your head would be.
00:26:52: No but now you know I've done so much things against the Norm Norm.
00:27:01: If I would have done what was expected of me I would grow up marry a man have two children have a.
00:27:11: PhD in something and have a you know Volvo and.
00:27:16: Live very conservative but I've done the opposite of I'm really glad when it comes to the Volvo mmm but I think that of course you are influenced by your environment it would be.
00:27:30: Crazy to say the opposite trying to think of in the fundamental stuff you feel like you broke the mold early on and so
00:27:39: there is truth to that I mean if you come out and decide to live your true life
00:27:44: as a gay woman then of course you are in a position to make choices differently because.
00:27:51: Let's face it you already did something rebellious and people's eyes over that was all done.
00:27:55: I think you're right yeah and sometimes people ask me when I you know explain about my life and they say who I mean you done so much and how did you have the courage to and I said you know.
00:28:06: The biggest thing I ever did about regarding courage was come out and everything after that was you know nothing so I just you know think that,
00:28:19: try to think that I kind of did it my way I wanted to choose my own path.
00:28:25: I also want to think I choose my path only took me a couple of years.
00:28:31: To get there we took the wrong path on the wrong path I think from Tyler yeah exactly what you said Karina learning-by-doing yeah different way but I mean it's never too late to just to choose another path.
00:28:47: Except what a wonderful way to end the show because we're pretty much going to wrap it up now so you can say that again Sofia it's never too late to what.
00:28:56: It's never too late
00:28:57: to choose a new Peugeot gals ladies women everyone who's listening whether you decide to be a mom or not or be a mom of other people's children why not and of projects
00:29:10: even or you know being the CEO of something that's meaningful to you I also think is a way.
00:29:16: Give birth to put something into the world essentially and I think that's the common denominator for all of us whether we've had children.
00:29:25: Of our own are not is the idea to keep like you said choosing A New Path and keep Reinventing
00:29:32: and as women we are shedding skins and all sorts of other stuff ever before week so I think it comes natural maybe more natural than male energy to
00:29:42: transform anyway
00:29:43: that was interesting I think we could have won another two episodes at least about this subject I'd be really curious what I listened to say to some of the things they heard here today I certainly was entertained by what you gal said so if y'all want to reach y'all want to reach out to us
00:30:01: we have a new email Karina do you want to say a new email address hello as me and the girls don't come.
00:30:09: So thank you girls for being here I'm really looking forward to the feedback we get 0 and also be on the lookout because we are about to launch our landing page finally I'm holding the process up a little but it is coming.
00:30:23: And also what else was I going to say oh yes if you happen to be in a break up right now or a post-breakup then I would love to hear from you what are some of the things
00:30:35: have questions around what are you thinking about because I with Karina and Sophia's help I'm getting ready to launch some workshops on how to break up and how to do that.
00:30:45: Anything else I forgot gals.
00:30:47: No I think you pretty much summed it up there yep like I do this for a living all right everyone thank you thanks for being here by Sofia bike.
00:30:55: Music.
