00:00:00: Music.

00:00:10: Ricardia from me and the gals and I am joined by one of my regular.

00:00:14: Visitors no co-host I should say which is Karina hi Karina I'm gonna hi there

00:00:21: I just love the fact that you called me gal that's silly girl yes girl got ya so today I'm here with Karina and just Karina because we're going to talk about something that we've often had.

00:00:34: As a topic in our conversations and that I've often thought about in terms of Karina but also my own life and

00:00:41: the title I ran by Karina and she was already like I don't know that that suits me but because

00:00:47: the title is coming out and still not gay what are your first thoughts about my God that's so provocative to be honest I'm not sure what to say cuz.

00:00:56: Yeah well I don't know I don't consider myself gay.

00:01:00: Even if I am married to a woman and even if I love my I love my woman I love my wife I love being in my.

00:01:10: Relationship with a woman but I find itself hard to to identify myself as gay.

00:01:18: So I really don't know what to answer am I gay I love that you are asking me the question but maybe I am,

00:01:25: maybe maybe you are a maybe we'll get to the fluidity of it for you later maybe but I wanted to I'll come I'll Circle back to it in a moment

00:01:34: but I read this article about a woman a couple of years ago I think I even forwarded it to you at the time and she referred to herself

00:01:41: as a late-life lesbian so she had been married there were for over 20 years there were kids then she left him and she started dating and I think ending up marrying

00:01:52: a woman.

00:01:53: So she called it late-life lesbian and then I remember there was Elizabeth Gilbert who wrote Eat Pray Love haha who was married to Men twice and she also at a later time I think she was in her 50s by now

00:02:06: ended up falling deeply madly in love with a woman who she then lost who died and she.

00:02:12: Has sort of a similar Evolution as you do but I'd ever heard her talking about herself as a lesbian is that something that you also feel like doesn't really tell the whole story makes like I never

00:02:26: put that label on myself as being a lesbian or a gay but I do like that that concept of being like a late-life what did you say.

00:02:35: Lesbian late-life lesbian because it's it has to do with for me it's a question about evolution

00:02:43: in a way as a woman I could never have done this when I was 25 because I simply was not there whilst now I am so totally there I could I love where I'm at and this is where I should be but it

00:02:55: it has also taken a bit of years in my life to get to this point because it's all about your inner urges and needs and your feelings and all that and I think it's not until I turned what.

00:03:10: How old was I 55 oh my God I was 55 when I met Sofia and I was just there it was just perfect it was.

00:03:19: And why do you think you couldn't when you say you couldn't have done it as a younger person is it because you wouldn't have even

00:03:26: had the imagination or you would have had some sort of moral questioning of yourself going on depending on how old we are we don't know how we reacted to this way in the back in the day that's also a very good question

00:03:39: I think I definitely had no moral the time he wasn't that it just simply wasn't.

00:03:48: It's a bit like if you don't see it you can't be it especially in my case because I was born and I grew up in a small town in the Northern parts of Sweden and.

00:03:57: I can't even remember seeing any gay people I mean obviously there must have been some and there must have been there in front of my face but nobody was.

00:04:06: Like openly gay so I was never.

00:04:11: Exposed to the situation even I do think however now that I sort of do a recap of my life and I think about different.

00:04:20: Circumstances or situations that I have been in I think a couple of women has actually hit on me in a very sort of soft and subtle way but.

00:04:33: Not even then have I.

00:04:35: I actually realized that this could have been for me you know funny huh but it has a lot to do with I think the upbringing what you don't see you can't be and.

00:04:46: I don't know I just did what was expected of me I guess and you know you know and that was to me the man get married and have kids hmm so that's what I did.

00:04:56: Finally almost like we lack the imagination sometimes yes picture ourselves in this kind of situation because.

00:05:05: Not just because we don't see it I think sometimes but because how do you go to a place that you just can't see in front of you like you said and I thought about this.

00:05:16: In terms of our conversation with the late-life lesbian so it really.

00:05:20: Feels like you're more fluid than this label would give you permission to be it does that feel like something you mean like.

00:05:28: Lll lay lifeless dummy you don't exactly the Triple L scenario yeah like you don't it sounds to me but correct me if I'm sort of.

00:05:37: Conjuring up things that don't really fit it sounds to me like you feel

00:05:43: that it hasn't so much to do with sexual attraction per se or not only but more like there's a person and she happens to be female and you fell in love exactly yeah you know this is so,

00:05:55: oh

00:05:57: People who meet me after this my after I entered my nudes type of Life sort of pig they meet me and the first thing that they can come up with as a question if they give me any question it's like what it's like to have sex with a woman.

00:06:12: Instead of saying what is it like to spend your life together with the partner that totally gets you that

00:06:19: that are on your same level every day all the time a person who can feel every feeling you have a person who can.

00:06:28: I totally understand you because that's what it is and the sexual part I mean that just comes as a bonus for you because if you are sexual individual as.

00:06:38: I consider myself to be it doesn't matter if it's a man or woman actually for me it doesn't,

00:06:44: I'm so much more attracted to the fact that I have a partner.

00:06:49: Gets me who sees me who understands me who think like I think and who.

00:06:55: Quite frankly I would like to spend time with you know because this is what we do in our relationship we spend time together with each other which I find very.

00:07:04: I truly enjoy a like that appreciate that in my life today

00:07:09: and that reminds me of something when you say that I remember after one particularly traumatic breakup it was a long-term relationship after it had ended I fell in love briefly with a woman

00:07:20: we only dated for a very short while you met her yeah yeah and

00:07:25: I remember one friend who had also just not too long been through a very traumatic breakup she had been with this man for 20 years completely misjudged how he would react and she said to me when I said you know I actually fell in love with a woman,

00:07:38: oh I totally get it I totally get it there just aren't any good men out there.

00:07:43: And so I thought to myself well I'm on a second are you saying that my falling in love with this person.

00:07:50: Is nothing but a hetero woman's reaction to a bad heterosexual breakup.

00:07:56: Because I didn't feel like that told the whole story I just fell in love with this person because I loved some of her qualities obviously and exactly

00:08:05: it didn't necessarily strike me first who I'm going to have sex with a woman now no no it's mostly like oh there's this person yeah and so I'm wondering,

00:08:15: did anybody ever do that also where they said to you yeah it's probably a reaction to men and now you're just you've gone off them yeah we're done here we're done yeah

00:08:27: I can't remember anyone actually saying that to me but I can imagine them thinking it.

00:08:33: And that's sort of pisses me off a bit because that is so low in a way you know like I mean obviously I'm sure there are good men out there.

00:08:41: It's just definitely it's not just one of them I didn't happen to meet a good man I met a good woman will just did it for me so you know.

00:08:51: Yeah it's like but almost it felt like I it's the consolation prize like men didn't work out and I've often felt that around.

00:08:59: In this case now gay women that often was this feeling of she's very disappointed in men,

00:09:06: but I don't know that that necessarily works because I don't buy that it's a diesel does he start to randomly have sex with men like the no exceptional no no it doesn't work like that in real life I think

00:09:18: no it's nothing to do with it actually.

00:09:21: I think it's more a fact that finally I am getting to know myself I know my needs I know what I want I know.

00:09:32: What makes me happy what makes me tick I mean.

00:09:35: And she just happened to be that person at that time though it was also timing I guess.

00:09:42: Because it's like you know when you start looking for love you.

00:09:46: For a person to love a partner you open up in a special way your mind is more open to,

00:09:54: bringing love in and that's what happened at that particular time for me when I met Sofia so.

00:10:00: I love that idea that I feel like in a roundabout way what you're saying is that love stands above any of all these,

00:10:10: label it does it does preconceived notions exactly and I also like the potential that you mentioning here of there just being so much more than what we think,

00:10:23: we know after the first one third three four decades yes yes exactly that there is yeah more exposure there so much more yeah you know.

00:10:34: The shift you don't know and then there's the shit you don't know you don't know the it just keeps growing,

00:10:40: I know less and less in life I keep saying I know more about myself but maybe I know less maybe you know a little bit more about ourselves which makes us realize.

00:10:50: How little we've understood its Carrie Smith when you were young oh my God I remember thinking when I was 30 oh I knew it all.

00:10:59: And not so much about

00:11:01: it is about learning new things you and I are both people who love to learn but I feel like I'm very busy unlearning a lot of the bullshit yes and then yeah time exactly to cast that off and be like.

00:11:16: In this case brush it off yeah it's move on who's the new the new thing yeah maybe the new me for me it was yeah.

00:11:25: So I'm wondering because you don't identify so strongly with the labels and labels being so important these days I you don't use and I'll label right away you get into a lot of trouble

00:11:37: Levi you can't know everything and you can only hope that somebody they're not

00:11:42: obliged to do it but you can only hope that somebody maybe explain stuff to you that you don't know right so I'm wondering do you now that you're in a,

00:11:51: gay relationship or know what relationship where you love

00:11:54: a woman or a same-sex if you will do you automatically feel stronger about all the issues around lgbtqia+ I'm hoping I

00:12:03: to feel stronger about those issues or the history or the movement or do you have a stance you're perfectly entitled to not have one but I'm just yeah well I was going to say I don't really have one because I'm not very

00:12:16: into it sort of I'm guessing still in my own bubble in my own life and all that I never was a person who was very sort of.

00:12:24: Engaged in the in the movement and such and I guess I should feel a bit ashamed about that fact because maybe I should I don't know but I've decided no I'm not very involved it could be okay.

00:12:38: Let me take some of that back because in the process of getting to know Sofia.

00:12:44: Because Sofia is lesbian and she has been so for her whole life she has also been exposed to a lot of.

00:12:54: Difficult situations which

00:12:56: situations that I have never been in you know I'm just saying yes very interesting and very hard because I realized that I have been very ignorant maybe for a bigger part of my life not knowing all these things about,

00:13:09: this particular group in our society and obviously I feel for that group and I feel for all the bad experiences that Sofia has had even though she has had very

00:13:20: see you in comparison to a lot of people in that situation so I have I have understood so much more than I have.

00:13:29: Before so that's kind of a so you've developed compassion but it doesn't necessarily mean you're now the political,

00:13:36: lesbian who's just going perfectly yes exactly maybe will be who knows my life isn't over yet you know might be up there this evening one day what am I a first down yeah,

00:13:50: yeah no nose so I also wanted to find out a little bit more this little bit more traditional question maybe what was the reaction,

00:14:00: family and friends or children if you need to talk about my lovely lovely children they are.

00:14:07: So lovely when it comes to this question and to be honest they were my only sort of.

00:14:13: I cannot say my only my only fear at the moment when the moment came and I was going to,

00:14:19: come out if we can call it that I was coming out when I was supposed to tell them you know that I

00:14:26: met a woman and all that they were like I mean

00:14:29: my daughter she already knew she had understood it before I did which is really funny I think it's a weird like that yeah and they are from another generation and they've been brought up in a different way than I was and so they were just totally fine.

00:14:43: They are.

00:14:44: They are so sweet when it comes to this subject I have no problems whatsoever with that and as you know my my my parents are not here anymore and I've been.

00:14:55: Dead for a long time so they never got to experience the new me and that sense and then I have some remote relatives that.

00:15:04: And really a part of my life I have spoken to some of them though and they are very extremely positive I have an aunt and she's around,

00:15:12: in her 80s and she's just so happy go lucky and congratulating me and being very sweet not to be honest I have.

00:15:22: Had no negative reactions from people I'm sure there must be someone's out there thinking negative thoughts about this but.

00:15:30: I have received a lot of Love Actually.

00:15:33: Isn't that interesting to think about it nobody has really said something evil or something negative about my choices.

00:15:41: But then again as from the day when I divorced and left my old life

00:15:46: I left a lot of the old friend Shannon and the old friends and people that I had around me I sort of lost contact with a lot of them.

00:15:57: And the few that I kept the few that were really my friends,

00:16:01: they're still my friends and they see me for what I am so no I think people are in general very positive.

00:16:09: I must say to be honest the only thing they want to know is what is it like to have sex with a woman do they really ask directly like some of them have yeah

00:16:17: yeah because there's so much curiosity arrived at no but it's funny because I finally Every Woman around a landscape I know every woman has a female body right so

00:16:28: I would say it's easier to know a female body than it is to know a male body.

00:16:34: That's the only thing I can come up when I try to think about what your what is it like when it's much easier for me to for me to explain what I want or.

00:16:44: Figure out a guess what they what my partner wants because it's the same body as I have you know that's funny I know it never thought of that.

00:16:52: God I'm so ignorant it's not I don't think it's ignorant it's just like you said there's there weren't enough models out there there were none,

00:17:00: you know who in my age group none.

00:17:05: And you said something else the other day or not too long ago that I thought was really interesting you felt that.

00:17:11: This is without judgment obviously that the female energy also doesn't take over in a relationship the way male energy sometimes yes did you mean because you know male energy is.

00:17:24: We were all brought up so differently the male energy is supposed to be the funny ones the ones that always talk over your head and the ones that sort of often

00:17:34: gathers in groups and the male sexual energy is very penetrating energy

00:17:41: once the female is not

00:17:44: and that's a big difference I mean to be a man and to be responsible for the penetration that's a very big responsibility to actually enter a woman you know

00:17:57: I love them well and of course you can give them the trust and Aiko and of course they can do that with.

00:18:03: Whatever it takes to do it in a wonderful way but for women it's so different it's more sort of more like waves coming and going.

00:18:13: Together I don't know how to describe it but what a much more on the same level.

00:18:20: And sex is much more in the head they could be also be my age I don't know that's really really interesting and I think the one word that keeps sort of.

00:18:29: Now reverberating in my head as I hear you talk is this two things

00:18:34: it feels like a shedding of several skins when you say you lost friends after this relationship the longer one that you ended and so I feel like there's a lot of transformational energy and I feel like you sound like someone who

00:18:48: found more freedom oh yes aged yes I did I feel totally free today.

00:18:55: And that I don't know if that is because we are to women because we consider our.

00:19:00: I'm selves very equal we are totally equal and that that's a

00:19:05: there's a feeling of Freedom you know I can be whoever I want to be I can just be me I realized that I haven't actually been myself

00:19:13: for my whole life because I've been creating a me

00:19:17: as from a picture of what a woman should be like together with a man which hawk which can be a terrible sight when you think about it

00:19:24: you supposed to make yourself smaller you're not supposed to speak up loud and you're not supposed to you're supposed to smile

00:19:31: you're supposed to nod when you're talking to someone all these little things you know I don't have to do that now.

00:19:40: Which is also I must admit not so simple.

00:19:44: All the time because I haven't practiced you know I haven't really actually practiced V myself the strong person I am because I am extremely strong and powerful you know I can't even use my voice it's true.

00:19:58: Not even her problems using my voice and I know why that is because I believing in,

00:20:03: in this male Society female male Society for so long and you're not supposed to raise your voice and speak up and even use your dog voice you know how could you oh my God.

00:20:15: It's interesting it's a generous chocolate with like this yeah female also yeah

00:20:23: helpless a little bit I mean thank God there's a lot of change going on I mean your daughter's generation yeah I mean they're not even close to this but me speaking from my perspective and friends I have in my age group.

00:20:36: So I have one more question for you

00:20:40: you partially answered it already but What's Love Got to Do with all of this at the risk of sounding like Tina was going to say is that Tina Turner What's Love Got to Do With It Love is Everything hmm.

00:20:51: Can we even survive without love in one way or another I don't know.

00:20:57: I love love what can I say hello in lifetime sometimes speaking for yeah more heteronormative respective now I find that.

00:21:08: I think the next time that I Fall In Love.

00:21:11: Glennon Doyle puts it so wonderfully in her book Untamed I know we've quoted yes I love her she says that she feels free and he'll are loved and held and I thought that's exactly Auguste it's yeah you describe everything you've talked to her we've talked about today it feels like you are being loved

00:21:30: I'm free.

00:21:31: But held in equal proportion exactly exactly like that and I love that yeah good all right everybody Karina thank you so much,

00:21:41: thank you Rick Dave's this was lovely so special talk yeah it is we always have

00:21:47: good talks and now we get to share them with people so everybody at we really hope this was a nice episode for you a good one maybe two

00:21:56: look at something that we think we know from a different angle if you'd like to drop us a line you can do so at bitch breathe at gmail.com the i in bitch is a number,

00:22:07: one and we'll hear from you see you next time thank you Korina bye-bye thank you.

00:22:14: Music.