00:00:00: Music.

00:00:11: Welcome back everybody this is ricardia from me and the gals.

00:00:15: 20:22 I hope you had a wonderful holiday or at least you slid into the new year with a little more grace than maybe a lot of us can hope for at this time and so my idea was because the holidays are over now

00:00:30: that you probably or may have spent a lot of time with your family and as a couple and I thought that the time with family at home especially after this year

00:00:40: for these almost two years that we have had is not always the easiest of times so.

00:00:46: The idea was maybe we could use a little help you know start 20-22 with some proactive choices so that we can avoid thinking right that's it

00:00:56: that is the last time I'm spending the holidays with this insufferable other human

00:01:01: so I've got a surprise for you today I'm actually not joined by my gals Sofia and Karina I'm joined by one of my other favorite people in this world.

00:01:10: Jamila Mavis we've been longtime friends jamila's a couple's counselor she's a mother of three.

00:01:17: A wife and a former actor which is how we met and she also focuses on couples and polyamorous and open relationships now I know we could have a whole episode on this I know right jameelah

00:01:30: huh hi but we're not going to not this time.

00:01:34: Jamila and I are going to talk about when do we know that it's time

00:01:40: for couples counseling I think this is a question in long-term relationships maybe many of us have asked but we'll get into the meat of it soon I would just love for you Jamilah to introduce yourself for a moment if you like.

00:01:53: Yes of course thank you so much for the invitation High yes as you said I'm jameelah married for almost 11 years

00:02:02: and we start children pretty pretty soon after that so our big girl is turning 10 now and.

00:02:12: Yeah for us it's it's been a long time we have to be parents and be in a relationship

00:02:20: so for us it's definitely a huge topic so let me ask you to Mila what made you become a couple's counselor I remember some of my parents fight a lot when I was a child.

00:02:35: Pixley I remember thinking why didn't they see how they hurt each other and why don't they stop.

00:02:44: And later when I was first time mother and have.

00:02:47: To include my relationship and to my new role as a mother really wanted to do this and had couples therapy for ourselves.

00:02:56: And I learned so much about.

00:02:59: The ability of couples counseling and capital there are P I learned so much how my stories and my behavior leads to certain issues and after I.

00:03:13: Bad and how I learn to reflect.

00:03:16: In the relation like relation wise how it matters how you grew up and how you learned.

00:03:25: Relationships and how I saw my parents fighting and how that.

00:03:31: Make a difference how I maybe be in my relationship,

00:03:35: for us it was a huge ability to come over a few things that was not easy in the beginning

00:03:43: I never remember you did it very early on I was a witness to this and I thought it was so amazing that you decided so early you know what we're going to get

00:03:52: help do you think that that has helped you be together for so long that you started way before a huge crisis had come from Italy because we.

00:04:02: Took our relationship and the situation we are in very serious at this point and I think that's that was the key for us.

00:04:11: It wasn't like just what we learned there of course also but the first message we gave each other was you're so important to me that I don't want to mess.

00:04:22: Things up.

00:04:23: And I think that was a really big commitment we made that is so amazing that you decided you would put put your partners,

00:04:34: at such a important priority level that you would.

00:04:38: Actually say couples counseling is a signal to my partner this is how important this relationship and this is how important you are to me.

00:04:48: And I think that's also a huge first step for every couple who was willing to do this step.

00:04:58: And it's like also a different perspective it's not 0 we are weak and we couldn't do it and we should could do it alone.

00:05:07: We just want to be priorities you are important to me I think we need to take time.

00:05:16: So I can show you how important you are so these I don't know one and a half hour we spent there is

00:05:24: because you are just important,

00:05:27: I love that time investment and I love the kind of well-loved that clearly is behind this decision making process that sounds really inspiring and what I'm also hearing

00:05:38: is that couples counseling can be coming from a place of empowerment.

00:05:44: Mutual empowerment of me empowering you you empowering me as opposed to being a place of like you said weakness.

00:05:53: Yeah yeah I think so like for me it was really for a long time I couldn't understand why

00:06:01: not everyone else see what I see it's such a gift if you have a room and a time where you can grow

00:06:13: with each other and and I know it's.

00:06:18: Black society wise we think therapy is a sign of weakness of not be healthy not be able but it's like that yeah it's like the courage

00:06:30: you have to look into your own self in a room where somebody could is able to have the right questions for you.

00:06:40: Yeah it's yeah to yourself and to your ability to feel and the feelings we not,

00:06:47: want to feel so much also not great relationship is on the table

00:06:53: you learn to cope together and that's I think that's beautiful and you can grow so much out of it or to the next to the next

00:07:04: Point step what do you say to the next level

00:07:08: yeah that you can get to the next level together and with a lot of transparency actually which is wonderful and intimacy you know if you go through you can build.

00:07:18: The different base because it's so deep you know it's yes you know each other.

00:07:25: Then in a different way it's like I saw you I saw you suffering I saw your hurt I saw your feelings and you allowed me.

00:07:35: To see you so thank you for that amazing.

00:07:39: So I know with you and your husband your husband was not just willing but very happy I think to come along to couples counseling with you and I know that you have actually written or spoken an audio book about.

00:07:53: What should I do if I think it's time for couples counseling but my partner doesn't want to go so jameelah if you'd like to maybe explain a little bit about how can we go,

00:08:04: and do this.

00:08:06: Try couples counseling if the partner is really not into it yeah I think that's a huge problem.

00:08:15: I mean I don't know about I bought a situation but here in Germany I think it's a huge problem still dead mostly men didn't want to go to couples counseling because.

00:08:27: Somehow we think we should be able to have a relationship that is fulfilling and happy makes me happy and if it's not then the other person

00:08:36: is wrong for me or the other person is not able or maybe I'm not able but most of the times the other person is not able and.

00:08:46: Then we are not we are we're just not a good match and we break up so in this Society it's still like almost a taboo.

00:08:56: To go to couples therapy so for me I wanted to to show way that.

00:09:05: There is certain things if you can explain or transfer your thoughts.

00:09:12: About this subject to how I see it and you can go into a conversation,

00:09:18: but how would I do it Jamie like let's say for example several years ago I was in a long-term relationship right and I really thought okay this marriage is seriously on the Rocks we need couples counseling and I knew I mean

00:09:32: most people I think I learned this from you come to couples counseling when it's already way too late right and I think I was at that stage with my partner and he really did not want to go

00:09:43: there was no way there were all these excuses I don't have the money

00:09:48: I don't have the time this person can help us I'm not talking to a stranger about our problems what do you say to someone like me

00:09:57: in that situation what can I do to get help when I know I need it

00:10:03: I think that's one key you just said I need something for myself can you please join me

00:10:10: and if there is still this no I can't because I'm afraid and that's most of the times what's underneath that underneath all the excuses

00:10:21: fear of fear of their could be a person who tells me that I'm wrong how I am in this relationship and I don't need someone else to tell me I'm wrong

00:10:32: and also we trust myth myth a myth.

00:10:40: About a couples counseling because that's not what we're looking for so that's something you could explain like you know what it's not about who did what it's about how can we continue from here on

00:10:54: there are some patterns I don't feel that they're doing well for us and,

00:11:00: right now I don't know in certain situations how I can get over this because I don't understand why certain things doing this to you or us or me so I'd really want to.

00:11:13: Help me to understand you and I don't know how so there are some one else I can ask can you please explain me when I say this

00:11:23: his or her reaction is dead and I don't get it I don't mean to be whatever hurting or being violent or whatever

00:11:33: but it happens and most of the times Terra

00:11:38: they're huge Fierce about going way back where are the triggers from and I understand that that there is like

00:11:48: yeah I'm not feeling comfortable to go deep and far away but maybe back to the childhood but in my audio book I explain that there is a step in between and this step is to be generous

00:12:02: to be understanding to be a I try to see and understand.

00:12:07: Why is hard for you to join me here on this way and you know

00:12:12: if you do no matter how or why or if there is no proof that if you go all into that you will get back and most couples when I explain and you know but you can be.

00:12:26: Just generous with each other you can bring her or him something you know they would like or feeling seen by because you know I thought about you and I

00:12:37: bring you a cup of tea and you look tired you want to rest or I see you struggling with whatever can I do something,

00:12:47: if you have this attitude if you go with this.

00:12:51: Am I have a strong belief that it will come back to you times the person is so empty.

00:12:59: This experience that you need to put a lot of these love and effort into a person before it comes back to you

00:13:08: and this is mostly time where the other person turns around and say you know what no I don't do it anymore there's nothing for me and I'm just giving and you are not and and then there are two persons in need.

00:13:20: And expect from each other please fill me up and if you don't feel me like if you don't give me one I don't know will give you want and.

00:13:29: You know and then it got childish let me ask you

00:13:35: Because by the time people show up at you at your jamila's doorstep there's been a lot of fighting probably a lot of anger

00:13:45: hopefully not but maybe some violence and definitely a lot of resentment like just not.

00:13:51: I remember towards the end of my one of my long-term relationships I had so much resentment towards this person I had become a hit yet word but I had become bitter.

00:14:03: And I felt like you know what asshole

00:14:05: I can't deliver any more like you just said another cup of tea I'd rather throw it at your head and bring it to your table that is the that is the level of resentment

00:14:19: and anger and years of feeling I guess unfulfilled like you said so.

00:14:26: I did still want this relationship very much I thought I was still in love what do you do when you're so Frozen with.

00:14:35: Anger that has been going on for quite some time how do you find your way back to the softness that you just described.

00:14:44: Yeah it's hot because it has a lot to do with forgiveness and seeing things that were hurtful and you can't change it

00:14:54: can't go back in time and to change that so you have to make a decision to live.

00:15:01: With what happened to this moment and today there is a different opportunity you can choose to go.

00:15:11: A different way and every time when I feel this bitterness and this.

00:15:18: Feeling of you're not good with me I can ask myself why am I in a relationship like this and if there are.

00:15:29: A lot of things that make sense for me because I see a potential to grow here

00:15:35: I see there are certain themes and issues that asked me to to be seen and overcome and I'm willing to do that with this person because there is enough goodness in this

00:15:50: constellation then it's worth it.

00:15:53: So I can choose to see okay you know right now I just see the situation and I now.

00:16:03: Invite myself to go to this to the next level and have like this bird perspective.

00:16:09: The situation okay I'm hurting right now because my expectations.

00:16:18: Here in the room and nobody cares.

00:16:24: I feel lonely and I feel not seen what do I need what do I want and then I come.

00:16:32: If I can reflect that with myself go to my partner and say you know what I really wished you would.

00:16:41: Seen what I need but.

00:16:44: You couldn't see me when I couldn't when I look I'm not telling you so let me tell you let me tell you what I need right now from you and then I'm into my.

00:16:55: Need and that's what what's underneath every expectation.

00:17:03: There is a need so what you're saying is basically my responsibility even though I'm feeling better and I'm feeling angry is to actually take a step back like you said the bird or meta perspective and to see well.

00:17:17: I guess to constantly question and examine myself okay What Lies Beneath which is already very difficult to do I think sometimes and so you're saying to step back.

00:17:30: Look at what my needs are and when I feel.

00:17:33: Ready to communicate those needs that is when I step back into contact and tell this person here's where you haven't seen me does that sound about right it is and maybe there is.

00:17:45: So much damage in a relationship like you you describe me.

00:18:00: Got a reaction that's even more

00:18:03: hurtful resentment or whatever and then it's okay to ask yourself so if there is there enough goodness like it's like you have a scale and you can put every

00:18:17: situation or like the okay there is our relationship and there is amount of.

00:18:23: Brokenness there is MM amount of love and how can we.

00:18:31: How can we cope with that and there are problems you can solve.

00:18:37: And there who you can go to couples therapy if you if you're struggling to solve this by yourself because we never learned that.

00:18:47: Probably and.

00:18:50: Then there are problems you can't solve and then you have to have a lot of willingness and Faith to go

00:18:58: to cope with that and have strategies and you can also learn this a couple therapy and strategies to cope with problems they are not.

00:19:08: Subtle is that a ride world or yeah yes there are two paths and making words up so

00:19:15: that's only we understand you so yeah I think if you have so many unsolvable problems and

00:19:24: do you realize you know what you are a good person but somehow this passed for us to overcome certain issues you.

00:19:33: Um

00:19:35: You trigger and me and I trigger in you and right now we are not able to overcome this it's true hurtful.

00:19:45: I'm not ready I don't see how I can forgive you forgive me or whatever I think it's.

00:19:54: Healthier 22 separate hmm.

00:19:59: So that actually brings me to a question but I think I'll combine my questions because one was

00:20:05: when do I know it's time for counseling and the other was when do I know it's time to throw in the towel so to just give up like you as an expert Jamie that what would you say.

00:20:17: It's a tough one to call but what do you think are some of the key.

00:20:22: Events or situations or even words where you would say okay.

00:20:29: Time for therapy or time to call your divorce lawyer are there some key mechanisms or.

00:20:38: Dynamics where you would say oh I've seen this before I've seen it a lot I don't think you're going to be able to take this anywhere but the divorce or here's how we can fix it in couples counseling

00:20:51: so maybe the first one what are some of the signals where you say

00:20:55: people I think you need to live you need to make a call to your lawyer and call it a day.

00:21:01: Yeah I think if there's not willingness to.

00:21:10: To repair see at yourself I think if you still try to fix the other person

00:21:19: to look at the other person's and the fail of the other person and the other person is responsible about your misery and your relationship and your unhappiness

00:21:30: and you are not willing to let that goal then I think you won't go far.

00:21:38: And in terms of being happy in a relationship because it's just not the other person.

00:21:44: It's just not the other person triggers points or.

00:21:50: I know that could be harmful things and hurtful things and

00:21:56: that's something you could have with each other you know you just hurt me really bad and then the other person can be sorry and you can talk about that that's something that happens and that's the responsibility of the other but.

00:22:10: My happiness in a relationship lace in my own hands in terms of how I am I with you and if you

00:22:19: I think that the other person is not able to give you that back then maybe you are right that could happen and then it's maybe the best idea to split up and to say you know what

00:22:30: I hoped that would be different with us and I don't think that we are we can that we are able so

00:22:39: I think probably you've already answered my second part of the question which was when do I know it's time for counseling so I guess I decide counseling is still a tool if I still have the willingness to stay here if I still feel like.

00:22:53: There's enough love but what would you damilola what would you add when do you think it's time for counseling my ideal scenario would be that every couple just do it,

00:23:06: because it's I like I have one really young couple right now.

00:23:11: And I'm so impressed by them because they are in their early twenties and they just have a good relationship with each other and say how can what can we do to continue to continue this.

00:23:23: What do we need to know so we can stay together and build maybe someday a family together.

00:23:30: And that's what I love it's like yes guys you got it yeah let's talk about that let's talk about what we need to learn.

00:23:43: With each other and from each other to stay connected to go deep with each other and that would be my ideal that.

00:23:52: Said couples realize I think there is so much more I can learn about you and right now I don't have to write questions.

00:24:01: So let's go to a place where good questions for us.

00:24:07: They're right now there are a few really good games for that too so maybe that's a step in between you can

00:24:14: by yourself like couples Gamecocks where a lot of good questions so you can go into a conversation and connections with questions you never had before maybe.

00:24:26: That's great are you working on one of your I don't I'm sorry yeah you know like I'm right now I'm working on my online class for couples my online course.

00:24:39: And I think there are so great games right now and I like a huge from kind of Esther perel.

00:24:48: I know I love it's like my Jesus and she that just like had this really

00:24:54: great game and I really like right now I think I couldn't get one because they are so loud but I'm I'm hoping I will get one soon and yeah I think it's I'm happy to say like couples

00:25:08: they prefer German there are really good German play cards and right now on the market and yeah I think for the

00:25:15: English-speaking Compass I would go with Estes / n so before we close where you can tell us a little bit more about where we can find you jameela I would love to hear maybe one or two more little nuggets if you can.

00:25:30: In terms of what are some of the ways that we can support each other when we notice man you are really getting on my nerves this is really been happening over and over if you could say like.

00:25:44: One or two steps what can I do when I notice oh we're here again and it's bugging the hell out of me.

00:25:52: Yeah and I know it's.

00:25:54: Super cheesy but what I like to say it's thank you for this invitation that I'm have to opportunity to look again what the situation want to show me.

00:26:06: And I know it's not what you wanted to hear because most people want to have a better solution that's far away from themselves but unfortunately

00:26:15: it's not the case it's just like not the case it's a situation and it repeats and repeats because there is something we are not solved by now

00:26:26: and if I'm not angry about this.

00:26:30: Situation I tried to see okay why am I in this situation again

00:26:37: what does it mean you know okay yeah so really taking responsibility even as we're in a relationship to keep looking at ourselves it feels like

00:26:47: is what I'm hearing yeah and it's not that it's not true that the other person could be I don't know hurtful and rude and it's not okay and you can obviously talk about that and that's

00:26:58: definitely something the partner does like in this situation if that's for example but if there is a pattern

00:27:06: then it's most of the time something that we are invited to look deeper nice.

00:27:12: Thank you so much to me like I've learned so much and I conversation a new things too and I'm surprised because every time I talk to you as always new stuff

00:27:22: thank you so so much I feel like we could have two three more episodes just about this we said maybe we'll think about thank you so much for your invitation.

00:27:32: Yes thank you for being here before we leave Jamila let us know where we can find you can find me on my internet homepage I mean

00:27:42: and it's worldwide rap internet.

00:27:49: I know it's amazing I'm fine.

00:27:57: You can look me up people and you will find it.

00:28:03: You can find me on my homepage it's just Jamie let me this and dirty and

00:28:12: and where can we get the audio book there you can download their it's for free you can just download and then you have like almost an hour where I can give you some ideas and inspiring you to go with your partner without or,

00:28:25: maybe afterwards with couples counseling but maybe also without and what can you do and it's a great book everybody I've read it already it's really really worth doubt it I know I wrote it in your rooms.

00:28:38: That was really a nice time thank you for that you're very welcome and and you can listen to my podcast everywhere you can.

00:28:50: Listen to podcasts

00:28:51: yes that one is called intensive old and little fun fact jameelah does this podcast with her husband Tino so if you guys are in a couple consolation I also highly recommend looking them up on that it's in German.

00:29:05: Yes it is in German so get you German on people

00:29:09: alright thank you so much Jamilah thank you everybody for listening if you have questions for me or for jameelah I'll be sure to also pop all her information into the show notes but if you'd like to write to me.

00:29:20: The email address is bitch breathe at gmail.com and the eye in Bridge,

00:29:26: in enriched by the way the eye and bitch is a number one so take care everybody happy New Year and we'll hear each other next time bye bye.

00:29:36: Music.