00:00:00: Music.

00:00:08: Hey everybody welcome back to me and the gals I am here joined by Sofia and Karina my name is ricardia and the three of us have a.

00:00:17: Bilateral friendship if you will because I'm here in Berlin in Germany and the gals as I like to call them even though I know that sounds very bad in some feminist ears they are in Sweden so gals if you just want to

00:00:31: say hi real quick let us know who you are hi there I'm Karina I'm here in Sweden together with Sofia and we are really happy to be here.

00:00:40: Lovely it's always good to be here with you to we've already talked about that we maybe want to do an episode right on long-distance friendships not just relationships but friendships because that's

00:00:53: something the three of us struggle with a little bit because we don't see each other as much as we would like so today we're going to talk about a subject that all three of us when we,

00:01:02: discuss it while I go that's a tough one which is forgiveness.

00:01:06: So I'm going to start out with you by saying that for me the word itself can sometimes already be a bit of a,

00:01:15: explosive issue like I found it at times in my life very hard when people would say you have to find it in yourself to forgive I was always like

00:01:24: okay right I'll put that on my to-do list together with you know

00:01:27: making a million tomorrow maybe a couple out of the things that I thought were really impossible so maybe to just start us off what.

00:01:36: Does that word evoke in each of you when you hear forgiveness.

00:01:42: Forgiveness this is a tough one yeah I think that is what the thing I struggle the most with to be honest yeah yes absolutely because I am a Virgo.

00:01:56: And I'm also HSP highly sensitive person yes and also quite.

00:02:07: Angry sometimes yeah you'll have one hell of a temper yes but it's been very much better now but yeah but no I find it very difficult I find it very difficult especially if I,

00:02:20: if I'm being mistreated or Karina is being mistreated or and what I love.

00:02:25: Mmm I suppose in comparison to you I find it easier to forgive.

00:02:34: That's not a good thing I think I don't know I love how she rushed in the Virgo with the Judgment I wasn't even going to say whether it's good or bad I'm just trying to think what am I and how do I handle that.

00:02:49: There are a couple of things in my life though that I find really hard to forgive.

00:02:55: I think I'm very Taurus if we should put that angle to this conversation I am a Taurus and you can treat me bad for a long time.

00:03:05: Without reaction really but when it comes to a stop for me it really comes to a stop and then there is like no turning back I fail and I have a couple of those incidents in my life.

00:03:17: Mmm where I find it hard to forgive.

00:03:20: I love that you're being so honest about it especially because I will join you in the feeling that I find it a very hard concept since we're all getting naked here I'm to a Virgo,

00:03:32: just like Sophia but in the moon calendar which apparently has a lot of.

00:03:39: How do I say meaning I'm apparently a Libra so there you go in terms of forgiveness whatever those two things mean I also find that it's something that is expected of women

00:03:51: more

00:03:51: then it is of men sometimes I don't know if you would agree with me on this necessarily yeah that's interesting you yeah I definitely think so right but yeah we're all supposed to be the big one but I think I mean.

00:04:05: During the last couple of years I have been faced with some really difficult.

00:04:12: Issues and things that happened in the past so those things I think there are something that you know

00:04:21: it's totally unforgivable to be honest.

00:04:24: I think so and it doesn't have to be you know who's the bigger person or whatever but you know some some things you can't just forgive,

00:04:32: okay here's another angle mmm we sometimes discuss this don't way because I believe.

00:04:40: I totally believe that the one missing out is the person who can't forgive because The Unforgiven.

00:04:50: Sort of lives on in me and the other person who I'm not forgiving he doesn't know or she will know.

00:04:58: And the only one it sort of hurts is myself.

00:05:03: So if if I were to wish for how I would like to handle the forgiveness I would like to be able to forgive even the Unforgivable.

00:05:13: Because I believe I'm not saying I living it I believe that forgiveness is the greatest.

00:05:21: And if you can if you can find it in yourself to forgive you can also be sort of free yeah but are you talking about forgiving yourself or forgiving both the yep forgiving yourself is also of course.

00:05:35: I'm not of course but you know being a Virgo difficult yet forgive yourself but

00:05:42: I struggle with that but I have been I'm better at it to forgive myself for you know acting the way.

00:05:51: I did when I was younger or whatever but I I can't and I know I have.

00:06:02: Path to walk here a long way maybe but I find it very difficult to forgive people that.

00:06:10: Are deliberately mean you know but you can also see that.

00:06:15: It's you suffering from it no I don't suffer you don't that was going to be my question actually like

00:06:22: because I know Sofia of course and I know you Karina and I wonder because I know in the spiritual scene there's a lot of talk about what Karina said,

00:06:32: as long as you haven't forgiven you're the one who's paying the price and I think I read this meme it was going around a couple of years ago where I was like

00:06:40: you know if you haven't forgiven someone it's like drinking poison and expecting them to die from it exactly it was that kind of thing and that's what Karina said but with Sophia that's my honest question.

00:06:54: Do you feel that aspects of you are not integrated or unhappier or still angry because there are certain things you haven't forgiven.

00:07:13: I think that you for me I mean it can be just a bad you know somebody treat you bad at work or whatever and I think

00:07:22: this might get a bit complicated but I think you know you see I'm I am adopted I was born in India.

00:07:29: And I have I think I've been taught from the very first day that.

00:07:38: My survival technique is to you know if somebody treats me bad I can just.

00:07:46: Leave that person behind shut them off

00:07:49: hmm which is a strategy yes yes and that makes it easier for me when people are hurting my feelings or letting me down or treating me bad I can just close the door and I

00:08:04: I won't look back because they can't never ever come back in my life again but it of course it doesn't have to be like you know.

00:08:13: It's not like small things of course because I am also a person you can talk to and I right we forgiven absolutely I can the commune then when it comes to the

00:08:23: big question is a big questions yeah I can absolutely just open the door and it's sorry open the door close the door and just.

00:08:30: Open the door let them out and kick them out and close the door again

00:08:35: I'm excited you again but I would just move on and I don't feel anything to be on I've done that to there have been moments in my life where I line was crossed and it's,

00:08:46: is kind of scary how quickly my emotions detached.

00:08:52: And then they have however been other times where is that girl are you going to pull your ass out of there because you should walk away from this situation it's verbally abusive luckily it hasn't been physically abusive in my experience but.

00:09:07: I can't judge your strategy Sofia because I think.

00:09:13: That that can be a very healthy one but I think it also leads a little bit away from the question which is forgiveness itself so one is to protect ourselves and walk away when a situation is toxic and or dangerous to us but the other is.

00:09:29: Do we manage to forgive and do we need to what I'm hearing from you is you don't necessarily feel yet like you need to forgive because you've walked away.

00:09:39: And so it no longer burdens you does that feel right how I recap that.

00:09:46: Yes in 99% of my cases but then you can also have the big Misfortune that if you are.

00:09:55: You having in conflict with somebody and you haven't really solved then that person dies.

00:10:02: Then you're then it's much more difficult,

00:10:06: but I was happy that I forgave that person before she died and I'm very very happy about that otherwise my life I would have suffered at.

00:10:20: Yeah yeah that's a whole nother can of worms I mean that's a whole episode right there what do you do in the ambivalence that is death right like that's a whole nother thing but let me ask you because.

00:10:32: What I love is we're coming at this from three different angles it feels like what does it mean to have truly forgiven I had a teacher once who said you know ricardia when you really have forgiven you know how you know that you have.

00:10:45: And I said he's a he's a really smart.

00:10:48: Teacher acts you know him through my workplace that I used to work and he said you know that you have forgiven a person fully if you would do it all over again.

00:11:00: What do you think about that.

00:11:02: Well now we're back to that again you know that all the difficulties you live through in life are actually good for you and you should appreciate them and sort of.

00:11:11: Praise them but hmm well I don't know I mean the things that

00:11:18: really had to forgive her I really had to because otherwise I don't know how could my life go on and I think it was very very difficult

00:11:28: even though I have I don't know I know I wouldn't I would live through it again no it was so painful yeah I sat there too and I was like wait what Nene what it but I thought about it then because

00:11:42: as you know I think as all my podcast listeners at least I know I was now I had a very difficult long-term relationship.

00:11:51: That felt very very unfair

00:11:53: in many ways even though I saw my contributions I saw where I went wrong or some of it and I found it extremely hard to forgive this person

00:12:03: it was even worse when the question came to forgiving myself I don't know that I'm quite done with that but I thought about it in context to what my teacher,

00:12:11: David said and I thought.

00:12:14: I would do it all over again I'd maybe cut that shit in half like do I really need to do it for that long because I did this over a decade but I would do it all over again because I know that the woman that emerged.

00:12:28: After this and other experiences I think she can contribute more to this world and I definitely know that I've grown my empathy that I was indeed lacking.

00:12:38: In for a very long time so I think I would have to say yeah I do it all over again,

00:12:46: maybe I'm just a masochist okay now that your equipment is can you argue to that but as you said because I also have a similar situation but.

00:12:59: You know life is now and you can spend many years being in the wrong with someone but really I mean.

00:13:06: Okay I'm being a bit antagonistic we love it when you're in tagging mmm I'm just going to say that do you really have to.

00:13:14: Learn something I think that's the Human Condition the horrible experience

00:13:20: that's the way of the universe honey I do of course and I have a lot of experiences that's been horrible but,

00:13:28: like you said I came out on the other side

00:13:31: that's a better person or with more empathy or with more insightful thoughts but I have experienced one thing in my life

00:13:41: that's interesting I didn't learn anything I always talked about this in another episode before I also think it takes time sometimes to realize what something has taught us.

00:13:53: Yes yeah that thing absolutely but what I'm talking about is that the I didn't learn anything it just gave me more.

00:14:03: Insecure so insecure yeah there was some stuff that I was going through with it so can I ask you Sofia because I think it fits if you don't mind me jumping in there have you forgiven

00:14:18: yourself or this person from this situation that your.

00:14:21: Sort of beating around the bush about have you forgiven those who are participating because.

00:14:29: I'm assuming now and please correct me that if you had fully forgiven those who were.

00:14:35: Part of it may be there would be an ability to see what has been learned does that sound plausible to you or yes I do I forgave her.

00:14:46: I forgave her mmm but there was nothing good.

00:14:50: So maybe not all of these forgiveness exercises are about having learned something maybe the Forgiveness itself is something that has contributed to our growth.

00:15:03: Maybe there's not a lesson 1 2 3 and 0 more empathy or I started my coaching business or I became Filthy Rich whatever it is right like maybe the Forgiveness itself can be an exercise

00:15:17: yeah but I also think you know that some things.

00:15:22: Can't be unsaid if you say something that's really really hurtful.

00:15:29: It's very difficult I for me to say you know if somebody.

00:15:36: Comes to me the day after and say hey sorry you know I'm very sorry about what I called you or whatever.

00:15:45: To me it's like yeah but I said it you said it and you know of course I am an empathic person I can.

00:15:54: Add to maybe this person is going to go through a lot of stress maybe this person in it you in a bad relationship or whatever blah blah blah but.

00:16:04: Yeah but I I don't think that's an excuse you know to treat people really bad now I don't think so either and it actually makes me think of something else Karina I'd be interested what you think about this that I often feel.

00:16:19: It doesn't have to be because I'm a woman but I think that might have contributed to it because how I was raised as a girl child.

00:16:27: But I often feel like why am I always the one forgiving and you apologizing what the hell you know and I also felt in movies often,

00:16:35: when women walked away they did you know they walked away from a divorce and saying I don't need anything from this man or they walked away from transgressions that were absolutely

00:16:45: brutal in some ways and I felt like what kind of fucking behavior is this being modeled that the women are always forgiving and the men.

00:16:55: Pushing their their their thing through and it's like oh he'll he'll be punished by God it's like I believe in the universe God but I'm like just in case God is you know not there for that right now could we just have like you know

00:17:08: her not walking away from the settlement or her not holding the other cheek because my joke is always like the only man I know who ever

00:17:18: offered the other cheek was Jesus as far as I know I have met too many people male or female like Jesus so sometimes I'm a little like

00:17:28: why do I have to do that to do you have that too sometimes yes absolutely and I am so sick of it being the one who's always going to you know be there insightful one and

00:17:40: and forgiving and whatever I'm I'm at this no bullshit age now so I love it no bullshit AIDS yeah.

00:17:51: But this is why women don't go to war.

00:17:54: Because we're biggest persons because we can find it I would probably go to war

00:18:04: look at who stole yes of course yes in this on this planet yeah yeah maybe could it be because that maybe that's because we haven't had much opportunity to start wars yet because no one's putting us in the fucking leadership positions were taking it.

00:18:18: Because we're not taking it I absolutely agree I mean if you ask me do I want to be in a general and a war I'd be like

00:18:25: could I give this job to some yeah because I don't think I can do this but I'll find ya want to make the decision yeah yeah but

00:18:36: yeah it has to do with that yeah and and to be honest I think that I actually I.

00:18:45: When you when you stumble upon a woman who.

00:18:50: Who is not forgiving or can't apologize hmm I think a bit less of her.

00:18:59: Because you're both are able to which is theirs because yeah because she is supposed to apologize yeah

00:19:06: okay but trying to rein it back in because I think we're digressing slightly and I want to wrap it up a little haha

00:19:13: I'll probably look at that later but I wanted to end with one more thing that I thought was really important around forgiveness because we have very different.

00:19:24: Opinions and experiences the three of us.

00:19:27: So what is maybe to sort of Bring It Back what is the one thing you wish you could forgive yourself or others and we're obviously not going to name names and if it's too private pick something else.

00:19:40: If there were one thing that you would want to forgive what would that be oh that you struggled with up to now.

00:19:48: Although that's a big question ring maybe I'll start so you have a moment think about it the one thing that I would like to forgive.

00:19:57: Myself for and that I can't say a fully succeeded at yet is it's really first of all it's me I find it much easier to forgive other people than to forgive myself and for me it would be.

00:20:09: Some of the Romantic choices I've made I wish I could forgive myself that I didn't make.

00:20:18: Better choices for myself so that I could have much sooner become the person I am today,

00:20:26: because I could have shortened this journey by what 10 15 years I'd have loved to have done that people so that's mine no no it doesn't work that way I think.

00:20:36: No I only know because then you would not be the person you are today so again the circle is closed you need to experience what you have that's what I'm going to say you don't have to forgive.

00:20:49: I like that you that Sofia comes at it from from this angle feeling of unforgiving -

00:20:57: It can be hard to Bear don't you think but.

00:21:03: See I don't think I think Sophia's right in some contexts I find I like that Sophia says you don't have to forgive me I'm saying I wish I had shortened in some ways what about I was actually thinking the same thing as you I also wish.

00:21:17: That I have made some different choices when it comes to.

00:21:24: Relationships in my own life that I would have stepped out earlier and all that but hmm.

00:21:33: But like we were saying the other day right if you'd known better you'd have done better exactly so it always comes down to that that you do what you can in the moment.

00:21:42: Convenient yeah.

00:21:45: I agree you do what you can in the moment alright I think that's a good a good final word of wisdom there so.

00:21:53: I think we digress a little bit today but I don't mind because.

00:21:58: It's good to have different feelings and experiences about the subject so to all our listeners out there.

00:22:04: I hope this was helpful to you I hope you have stuff that you feel you can let go and if you can't there's always Sofia here for you to say you don't gotta figure nothing.

00:22:15: Alright girls thanks for being around again and we'll talk.

00:22:20: Music.